Episode 38

The Clash of Numenor: A Review of the Rings of Power Season 2 Episode 5

Philip brings on Jared Stonefield, who has a deep knowledge of the Middle-earth lore, to discuss ROP episode 5. This episode begins to ramp things up with Numenor, build on the relationship between Celebrimbor and Annatar, and show the beginnings of a dwarven ring's affect on King Durin III. This is a wholesome analysis on the Rings of Power.

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00:00 Introduction

01:22 Jared's First Encounter with Tolkien's Lore

03:07 Delving into the Dwarven Storyline, the 7, and Narvi

06:22 Timeline Relevance Sauron's Corruption of Dwarven Rings

12:52 Sore on the Balrog Out of Order

14:58 Elven Storyline and Making of the 9

16:05 Annatar's Relationship with Celebrimbor

19:29 Smith Brotherhood and Lesser Rings

23:46 The Rings of Power Effects on Varying Races

25:02 Celebrimbor's Faith in Men...

26:39 Clash of Numenor

28:48 The Lore Behind the Faithful and the Kingsmen

33:20 What Leads to the Fall of Numenor

38:24 ROP Tries to Explain Everything

41:17 The Good and the Bad

46:01 Conclusion

Transcript
Philip:

There are quite a few things to enjoy about the fifth episode

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of The Rings of Power Season two.

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The seven rings are given to the dwarves.

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The faithful and the kinsmen

really clash for the first time.

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And Annatar slash Sauron begins

his manipulation of Celebrimbor.

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This part of the Numenorian storyline

picks up the pace for what leads

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to the full of Numenor and Sauron's

evil devices make themselves

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prevalent in creating the rings.

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As usual, there are lore accuracies, and

inaccuracies, and some cheesy moments.

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I'll be joined by Jared Stonefield,

who is a lifelong Tolkien fan,

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and he'll contribute with his deep

knowledge of the Middle-earth lore.

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With that let's dive right in.

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Philip Intro: Welcome, my lords, to

the White City, where you will learn

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more about Middle-earth and discover

differences and similarities between

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the Rings of Power show and Tolkien's

books, and whether Amazon's show,

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episode by episode, is worth watching.

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I'm Philip Dudt your host, and I'll

be joined by Matt Vandevort and

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Mark Schaeffer I hope you enjoy.

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Philip: Hey everybody!

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Thanks for tuning into

the white city podcast.

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Today I have with me Jared Stonefield

my guest, and we're going to

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be talking about the rings of

power season two, episode five.

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Philip (2): Just to start

us out, Jared, what got you

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interested in Lord of the Rings?

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For instance, like, did you watch the

trilogy first and then read the books or

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like read the books and watch the trilogy?

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That kind of a thing?

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yeah.

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Jared: So I actually don't remember the

first time ever being exposed to Tolkien.

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That's how long it's been in my life.

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I know at some point I watched the

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trilogy for the first time,

but I just don't remember.

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I just, we grew up

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watching those so often in my

family household that, I think

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I have those memorized to an

insane amount at this point.

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And then after, after the movies,

I got right into, The Silmarillion.

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I got, you know, into The Hobbit

and The Lord of the Rings books.

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And I, yeah.

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They're some of my

favorite books of all time.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Cool.

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Yeah, it's, it's definitely something

I've gotten into since, since, well,

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after watching the movies, Similarly,

I was very young whenever they came

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out, but that's, that's kind of where

it started, and we'd always watch

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them growing up, like, all the time.

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Figure it, like, out, memorize

lines and requoting, all that kind

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of stuff, so yeah, definitely.

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That's something where we started and

then I just got into the books after that.

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Yeah, so for this episode, I believe

we got three different storylines that

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we're going with So we got dwarves,

we have elves, we have Numenor.

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And typically what we do with the

podcast, what we've been doing is

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just going that kind of by storyline.

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Cause I know sometimes it's, it's tough

to still like go with like, Oh, this

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happened and then this happened and

then this happened, sometimes it's easy

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just to think about the Dwarves and

what happened to them and, you know,

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for the rest of the storylines as well.

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So, we just like, uh, So I can just give a

quick kind of breakdown with the Dwarves.

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You've got the, the King of Moria.

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I guess he gets the Seven.

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The Seven Rings in the beginning there.

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They don't show them giving

it to him, which I thought

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it was a little bit too bad.

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I kind of, like, would have liked to

see at least some, like, transaction

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there, but, so we saw him, with the

rings, kind of moving to him, using the

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ring to figure out where, like, they

should dig to get the light to come

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through the mountain, and Disa isn't too

happy about that because he's like, My

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singing should be like, what we're doing

for this, not this like, crazy ring.

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And then from that moves into the

younger Durin basically kind of wondering

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if this ring is even like for good.

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He goes back to Celebrimbor, I

do believe if I remember then..

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anything else on that one?

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You remember that I'm missing?

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Jared: Yeah, so I think the only thing

that's like, probably missing is, um,

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Durin is starting to notice that his

father's acting a little odd ever since

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he put that ring on, and, um, the Delve

Master of Khazad-dûm, Narvi, he's also

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like, him and Durin the Younger are

like, Alright, what's going on here?

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Cause this is kinda going a little insane.

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Philip: Mm Hmm.

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So, that is one point that we can touch

on there about, Narvi is, so I believe

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he is a lore character and and he is,

and he did work with Celebrimbor, right,

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to build the, the Moria door right,

And that's what they showed in that

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episode, right?

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So, is that, is that what you're saying?

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Like, was that pretty lore accurate

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then?

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Like that whole, that whole thing?

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Or,

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Jared: Yeah, so, Narvi isn't mentioned

too much in Tolkien's lore, but

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it is said that he was the one

who, inscribed upon the doors, and

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Celebrimbor also helped design them.

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They were the ones who created

the doors hand in hand together.

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That's kind of all we really know.

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We know that he was a really great dwarven

craftsmith, but we don't really get to

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know too, too much else, so The Rings

of Power kind of, expands on that by

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making him what's called the Delvemaster

of khazad Dum, is the title I think

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I heard them give to him a few times.

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Philip: Yeah, they don't really give

him, too much time, necessarily, but

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the, they're, you're saying that.

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they're digging more into like, by

giving him the name, Delvemaster,

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that's kind of giving him more

of a role to play in the story.

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Which is kind of cool, kind of cool to

see like, different characters who, you

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know, you don't see come up a lot from

the lore, given a little bit more time, in

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The Rings of Power, but also we can talk

about some more too of like, maybe they

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don't give as much time as, they should.

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It'd be be kind of more interesting if

they would give more time to those things.

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Jared: Yeah, I think Narvi's

a great example of that.

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I mean, he's only mentioned, I think,

like, in like two sentences total

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throughout the entire bit of lore, but

obviously he plays, like, a pretty big

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part, you know, he's one of the best

dwarven craftsmiths, and he's working

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with elves, which is, like, something

that rarely happens, and I think that

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just goes a lot to say about, like, how

amazing of a writer Tolkien is, is that

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he can just have one single sentence that,

another, storyteller can just expand on

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and create, like, a whole . plot line

out of, because he just has, Tolkien just

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has so much rich detail in what he writes.

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Philip: Right.

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Yeah.

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So, going on some to the, uh,

to the ring, and how that's

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affecting the king of Moria there.

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So it's it's interesting, is in a

previous episode, we did mention

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about how that ring, I believe that

the king had was like, always like

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kind of questioned about whether...

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The dwarves kind of said, oh, this may

not actually be affected by Sauron.

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I don't know if you remember that at all.

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So I, I don't know if that's this exact

situation with this king that they, that

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they would be pulling from, but, I guess

that was, that was, interesting to think

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about that and it was, I mean, of course,

all, all like, all the dwarf rings.

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Would be corrupted by Sauron.

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Like that's kind of what would

be assumed, in the least, but

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Jared: Yeah, so, um, it's really

interesting, and I think you guys

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talked about it in the episode, of your

podcast when you were talking about

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the first three episodes of season two.

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You talked about this a bit, where,

I mean, I can understand, I can,

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I kind of see why the show writers

did it, but they changed the

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order of the making of the rings.

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And I can kind of understand why they

were wanting to do that, but I think it

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did create like a lot of problems that

they now have to kind of work around.

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But yeah, what's really interesting

is that the seven, once they got

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into the Dwarves hands, depending

upon, because Tolkien had two

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conflicting accounts about this.

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In one version, the elven rings,

sorry, the seven rings for the

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dwarves were given to Durin III

by the elven smiths of Eregion.

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Which is basically what happens

in this episode, that actually is

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something that's mentioned in the

appendices of Lord of the Rings.

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But it also says that even though

the elven smiths gave that ring to

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Durin III, it doubtless had Sauron's

evil power on it since he aided

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in the forging of all the seven.

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And it's interesting that they are

now showing the harmful effects of

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the ring already on the dwarves.

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'Cause that wasn't really something

that happened in the lore until

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after Sauron created the one ring

after he kind of like revealed

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that he had been posing as Annatar.

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So they're kind of bringing that

corruption forward a bit and that's

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something that we're seeing already.

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Which isn't like necessarily

the worst thing in my opinion.

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I mean, it's making for very

interesting television, but it's

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it's just like the the order of the

lore being switched up as a little

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Philip: right.

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That's uh, that's something definitely

that, um, like now that we've

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mentioned in our podcast before too.

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So the changing of the order of the

rings and then, um, what was the other

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thing that you mentioned too, there?

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There was something else you

were just talking about too, I

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just, I was gonna ask a question

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Jared: Oh yeah, you're good.

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So yeah, there's there's two different

versions there's the version where the

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elven smiths give Durin III the ring,

but there actually is also another

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version in which it's never really made

clear if the Seven Rings were meant

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for elves or for Dwarves originally.

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Philip: Oh okay, yeah, interesting.

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Okay.

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Jared: So, that's something that like is

brought up in, um, The Unfinished Tales.

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Where the elven smiths create the Seven

and the Nine as sets, and it's kind of

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inferred that they're meant for Elves,

and then Sauron, once he, like, reveals

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his betrayal, he goes to Celebrimbor, Lord

Celebrimbor in Eregion, and he basically,

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like, tortures him to find out where the

seven are, and the nine, and he takes

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them, and then, the Silmarillion continues

the story by saying that Sauron then dealt

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the rings out to the other peoples of

Middle earth, hoping thus to bring under

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his sway all those that desired secret

power beyond the measure of their kind.

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Seven rings he gave to the dwarves,

but to the men he gave nine.

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Philip: Yeah, yeah, that's cool.

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So I guess, yeah, it's interesting

that Sauron wouldn't have revealed

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himself until uh, until after

he put the rings out there.

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But you can kind of, I can kind

of see how that would be more to

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his advantage because now you have

Durin the Younger being like, oh

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hey, like what's up with this?

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I gotta go back and like figure

out like what the, what the

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elves are doing, you know?

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So It makes sense for like, Sauron

wanting to just reveal himself at the

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time that he would want to reveal himself.

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Jared: Yeah.

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I will say, like, even though, I was

a little surprised that they were

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introducing the corruption of the seven

so early, I was really, impressed with

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how they're doing it, because how they're

doing it is matching up really well, I

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think, with, what Tolkien wrote about the

effects that the seven dwarf rings had

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on the dwarf lords.

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I, I've always loved the dwarves.

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I'm a huge dwarf nerd and, uh, I've

been waiting to see the seven rings

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actually, like, get a time to shine

in this story, ever since they

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announced that this show was happening.

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So, it's really cool, even though,

like, the timeline is definitely a

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little wonky, it's really cool to

see parts of the lore actually being

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expanded, especially in this episode.

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Philip: Yeah Well it's just like,

one thing too is, I hope they

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also, whenever like, the rings go

to other dwarves eventually, that

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they also give them some storyline.

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Because I think that in the

show, like they haven't really

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expanded on a whole lot.

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So, it's like, even with just, like, them,

like, creating the rings and giving them

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to the dwarves, I feel like oh, okay, all

of a sudden, like, first episode, like,

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at the beginning, they gave it to them.

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I know.

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It's not a huge thing, I guess, but it

just kind of, it just a little bugged me.

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In a way,

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Jared: Yeah, I I totally

get what you mean.

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Like, I feel like, if they

don't show how the other Dwarf

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lords are affected by rings.

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I think it's gonna be a bit of like

wasted potential, because there's like

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some really really good stuff there.

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Especially that could like, make

great stories for later seasons.

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Because Tolkien mentions that There

are four dwarven kingdoms in the

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lands of Rhun, which obviously

the show is exploring right now.

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Um There are four dwarven kingdoms

out in the east, and a certain

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number of them, we don't, we know

that four dwarf rings in the future

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at some point are lost to dragons.

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and I feel like, I mean, come

on, a chance to have a dragon

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in the Rings of Power TV show.

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I feel like if you're not going to take

advantage of that, what are you doing?

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Philip: No, yeah, that's a good point.

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That's a good point.

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Definitely So like just thinking

about like this Dwarven storyline

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anything come up that you're thinking

this wasn't really lore accurate.

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Jared: Yeah, the one thing that, um,

besides the whole thing with like

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the timeline of how everything was

happening, the one thing that I was

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a little tepid about was the idea of

the balrog being introduced so early.

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I mean, they've kind of shown shots of

the Balrog in the trailer and then of

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course in this episode Disa goes down to a

cavern and she stumbles upon some sort of

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creature that is growling in the darkness.

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And it's implied that it's the balrog.

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The balrog isn't really due to appear

til the third age in the year:

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And actually he slays Durin VI, the

king of Moria at that time, and that's

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when the kingdom falls into darkness.

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So, I'm kind of wondering if, because I

know we've seen glimpses of the balrog

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in the trailer, I'm kind of wondering if

they're gonna introduce the balrog this

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early, like as soon as they get the ring,

suddenly Moria falls into darkness, or, I

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don't really know how they're gonna handle

that, I thought that was interesting that

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they were bringing the balrog in so early.

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Philip: Yeah, that is interesting.

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Yeah, cuz it definitely seems

like the like the whole realm

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of Moria is gonna continue on

for like more longer than this.

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I don't know exactly when you know, the,

uh, the fellowship, you know, arrives

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in Moria and like the this time span

between that and when it actually fell.

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um, yeah, it just seemed

like, I don't know.

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I don't know.

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how long that was, but it seemed

it was a lot longer that it went

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on than, than back back then.

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So..

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Jared: Yeah, it's, it's, if I remember

correctly, it's like, from where the

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show is now, about a thousand plus

years in the future, then it falls.

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And then 2, 000 years after that

is when the Fellowship enters, and

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then when Gandalf fights the Balrog.

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The Balrog is kind of just like,

chilling in an abandoned Khazad

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dum for about 2, 000 years.

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Philip: Oh wow.

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Okay.

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But like, like Gandalf knows that and

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Jared: hmm.

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Yep.

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Philip: that.

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No yeah.

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That's cool, that's cool.

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Alright, so let's move

on to the elves now.

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So, we got, basically the whole time,

we have Halbrand, uh, working with

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Celebrimbor to make the, make rings.

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Celebrimbor's kinda hesitant to make more.

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Not really sure why he's hesitant,

except that, like, he just, Maybe just

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felt like there wasn't something right

about 'em about the seven they made.

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And he was like, no,

there's no more rings.

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We're going to do like, we've done enough.

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Like, you know, we got three and we've

also got the seven, but then, you know,

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Annatar's just trying to like influence

him to, to make the nine for men.

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And eventually, eventually

Celebrimbor is convinced.

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And that's, that's kind of the

general way it starts going.

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You've got the girl too, who.

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Puts on a ring and like goes

into the, um, to the realm, the

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Jared: The unseen world.

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Philip: Unseen world.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Unseen world.

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So, um, yeah, Any, uh,

any thoughts on that..

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Jared: Yeah, I had a lot of thoughts

that I was, like, really enjoying

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with this particular plotline.

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I think it's shaping up to be my

favorite of the season's so far.

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I think that while, like, the idea

of the seven already corrupting the

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dwarves isn't necessarily accurate,

Sauron's manipulation of Celebrimbor

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in this episode specifically I

think is done really well, and it's

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done, like, in the vein of the lore.

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Cause the obviously Celebrimbor in,

like, the lore, he never had reservations

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about making the 9 or the 7, unlike

this show, but I do like how, Annatar,

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Sauron, whichever you want to call

him, is, so masterful in making it

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all turn back on Celebrimbor and

making it look like it's his fault.

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I thought that was just like kind

of brutal where he was just like,

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oh you lied to your high king.

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How can you do this?

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You infected the process.

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Now we have to make the nine to

like kind of achieve balance.

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I think that ties in pretty well with

like this one quote from Unfinished Tales

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that um says " Now, Celebrimbor was not

corrupted in heart or faith, but he had

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accepted Sauron as what he posed to be."

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We don't get too many clues as to

like, Celebrimbor's personality,

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really, through the lore.

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cause, It's from the Silmarillion, so

it's more told like a myth than it is

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like a book, like a standard fantasy

book as we would think of it nowadays.

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But like, I feel like lines like that show

that like, Celebrimbor really does care.

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I mean, you know, he's definitely

prideful, but he cares a lot, and

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Sauron is just twisting the knife in

at this point, which I thought just

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like, made it really compelling.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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How do you feel about like just

Celeborn's like portrayal in the show?

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You know, they kind of give him..

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Another thing we've talked about

too, is just like how there are

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like thing, different skills or

like characteristics that can be.

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Uh, can come together in Tolkien's world,

and they don't have to be separate.

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Like, Celebrimbor is a smith, but like

in the lore, he's also like powerful

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in other ways, a good fighter, but they

seem to give Celebrimbor maybe this sense

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of like being Like weaker in that area.

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Jared: Yeah, that's something

that's really interesting.

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Because you're right, he is, um, at

one point in the lore it says that,

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Whenever Sauron comes up to him and

demands the seven and the nine and the

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three, Celebrimbor faces him down with

a sword at the entrance to the forge.

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I'd be interested to see if that

actually happens in the show because

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it just it doesn't seem to Celebrimbor

in the show so far doesn't seem

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to be any sort of like warrior.

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He seems to be more of just like,

you know, like the nobility lord

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kind of deal um, but who also is

an extremely gifted blacksmith.

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:

we don't really see much of

like the warrior kind of thing.

339

:

So i'm interested to see if

they're gonna kind of do that.

340

:

Maybe like I don't know in the

finale or something like have

341

:

Celebrimbor whip out a sword.

342

:

I'd be interested to see

what's gonna happen with that.

343

:

Philip: Yeah.

344

:

Yeah, because, but then it

would be odd, like odd a

345

:

Jared: Yeah, it Would be,

like, a little random.

346

:

Philip: Yeah, to flip it and,

you know, have him all of a

347

:

sudden start using a sword, but.

348

:

But Yeah, no, that would make

definitely make for a better,

349

:

better, uh, kind of show down there.

350

:

Jared: Yeah, it would be, it's,

it definitely has drama, like,

351

:

just built in there already.

352

:

Yeah.

353

:

One other thing that I wanted to touch

on that you talked about, was the girl

354

:

smith, the one with the blonde hair,

they name her Mirdania in the show,

355

:

and they have her testing a ring, and

I was actually really happy that they

356

:

included this, because in addition to

the three, the seven, and the nine,

357

:

there was a large number of lesser

rings that were made during this time.

358

:

And Gandalf explains this to Frodo

briefly in, Fellowship of the Ring.

359

:

He says, "In Eregion long ago

many elven rings were made, magic

360

:

rings as you call them and they

were of course of various kinds.

361

:

Some more potent and some less.

362

:

The lesser rings were only essays in the

craft before it was full grown, and to

363

:

the elven smiths they were but trifles yet

still to my mind dangerous for mortals."

364

:

So I was actually really happy

we got to see some of the lesser

365

:

rings, cause again, with like the,

way they switched up the order of

366

:

everything by making the three first.

367

:

They didn't have the lesser

rings beforehand so I was like,

368

:

oh man, I guess we're gonna

kind of miss out on seeing that.

369

:

But then they actually were, they were

able to like, kind of sneak it into this

370

:

episode, which I thought was pretty cool.

371

:

Uh, Just also, the little nod to

like, whenever Frodo enters the unseen

372

:

world in the Peter Jackson film that

has like all that mist, that kind of

373

:

like, greyed out kind of surroundings.

374

:

They kind of allude to that in this

show, which I thought was a pretty

375

:

neat kind of nod to those films.

376

:

Philip: Right.

377

:

Yeah.

378

:

That was, uh, I feel like

that was an accurate portrayal

379

:

of what was happening there.

380

:

And honestly, actually thinking about

that, there are, there are other times

381

:

when it has seemed like they're pushing a

little too hard to like connect with the

382

:

films, but like, yeah, that scene there

definitely seemed that there were just,

383

:

hey, this is just like the way things are.

384

:

With like the unseen world and yeah,

this is what happens you put on the ring.

385

:

Yeah, but that was that was good.

386

:

Yeah,

387

:

Jared: But that also like, interestingly

enough, that kind of goes into what I

388

:

wanted to talk about a bit with like, some

of the lore inaccuracy of that plotline.

389

:

There wasn't too much that was like,

inaccurate per se beyond what we talked

390

:

about, but, the smiths that Celebrimbor

is with in the workshop that we see

391

:

throughout the entire episode, in The

Silmarillion and The Unfinished Tales,

392

:

they're called the Gwaith-i-Mirdain,

and they are a secret, like, society

393

:

or brotherhood that Celebrimbor has

formed that's very powerful in Eregion.

394

:

And I think, so the one, the

girl smith, her name is Mirdania.

395

:

Which I think is like the writers trying

to allude or nod to the idea of the

396

:

Gwaith-i-Mirdain, Because I don't think

they actually have the rights to say

397

:

the words Gwaith-i-Mirdain in the show.

398

:

There's like a whole bunch of

like, you know, discrepancies with

399

:

what they can and can't mention.

400

:

So I think it was, it was

interesting just seeing how they

401

:

were trying to like dance around it

by having Mirdani as a character.

402

:

She's kind of like the distilled version

of that brotherhood so that you can kind

403

:

of see she's like an audience surrogate.

404

:

You can kind of like see the

corruption of Celebrimbor and like

405

:

the seduction of Sauron as Annatar.

406

:

So I like I get why they did it but

like her character and the society

407

:

that she belongs to are definitely a

bit different in the original writing.

408

:

Philip: Okay, that's interesting.

409

:

I did I didn't know about the society.

410

:

So That's a, that's a cool

part to the, to the story then.

411

:

But, I don't, but as you were

saying, like, would they be

412

:

able to have that in the show?

413

:

Jared: Yeah, I don't know.

414

:

No, it's it's so weird because

I I've heard a few industry

415

:

insiders talk about this.

416

:

And even they aren't exactly sure

what they do and don't have rights to.

417

:

There's rumors that they had to get

rights to mention a few characters in

418

:

this season that they didn't have before.

419

:

They're like constantly being in like a

dialogue with the Tolkien Estate about

420

:

what they can and can't mention, which

I can just imagine would be like super

421

:

super frustrating if I was a writer.

422

:

I would just be like, let me mention some

characters from the Silmarillion, dang it.

423

:

Philip: Yes.

424

:

Yes.

425

:

Yeah.

426

:

No, I imagine it does impede like

how they're telling the story and the

427

:

more loops they have to jump through.

428

:

Which a lot of people probably don't

know because they're not seeing like

429

:

behind the scenes and all, but yeah.

430

:

So that's, that's neat about

the, that lesser ring coming up.

431

:

I thought that was interesting that

it made her disappear because I guess

432

:

that's another thing is that depending

on like how powerful the being is,

433

:

the ring may not turn you invisible.

434

:

Is that, is that, kind of..

435

:

Jared: Yeah, so that's an

interesting thing I was actually

436

:

just, like, reading up on today.

437

:

Because I had, like, a few

questions about that, too.

438

:

From what I understand, rings

are much more likely to make men

439

:

invisible, not necessarily elves.

440

:

Um, so I think that they were

just trying to show that these

441

:

rings can turn people invisible.

442

:

I don't know if that's

necessarily lore accurate.

443

:

Because, I mean, obviously, elves being

able to see into the Unseen World,

444

:

that definitely is a thing, and also,

whenever Frodo puts the One Ring on,

445

:

he Gandalf says he steps halfway into

the Wraith World, or the Unseen World.

446

:

So, there's a precedent for that,

but, like, having her be invisible?

447

:

I think it's, like, a grey area, kind of?

448

:

I'm not exactly sure about that.

449

:

Philip: Yeah.

450

:

The elves just being more powerful

in a lot of different ways than men.

451

:

Jared: Yeah.

452

:

Philip: Yeah, it's interesting,

uh, with Calebrimbor's

453

:

line, in there, I know I had to I

had to put it down there, just about,

454

:

like, We cannot give the rings to men,

and him just like, I guess, trying to

455

:

touch on how corruptible they can be.

456

:

Which is interesting, because Sauron's

probably thinking, like, No, This

457

:

is why I want to give rings to men.

458

:

Jared: Heh heh.

459

:

And I find it so funny that, like,

when Sauron starts listing, you know,

460

:

he's like, there's always a few who

rise up and shine in the darkness, and

461

:

he mentions, Beren, son of Barahir.

462

:

I'm like, Sauron killed Barahir.

463

:

So I'm just like, man, that's

another level of just cold.

464

:

Philip: Man, he also

mentioned Tuor, or Turin.

465

:

Is it Tuor or Turin that he mentioned?

466

:

Jared: Tuor.

467

:

Philip: It was Tuor.

468

:

Oh, okay.

469

:

Yeah, Yeah, that was, no, that was, neat.

470

:

Jared: Yeah, I love that But yeah, like, I

also understand kind of where Celebrimbor

471

:

is coming from this, because, um, I guess

from Celebrimbor's perspective, he hasn't

472

:

really had too many dealings with men.

473

:

Um, and I guess the only dealings that

he really would have had with men are,

474

:

there were some that fought on the

Valar side when Morgoth was defeated,

475

:

but like, the majority of men were

fighting with Morgoth in the First Age.

476

:

So I guess there's a little bit of like,

reason for him to be just naturally

477

:

suspicious of men at this point, not

wanting to give them rings, because

478

:

he understands, like, you know, the

power behind what they're doing.

479

:

But yeah, of course, Sauron's

just like, Wait, wait, wait, just,

480

:

just give men another chance.

481

:

Philip: Yes, it's, yes, that's true.

482

:

So, all right, so let's move

on to our, our third storyline.

483

:

So we got the men of Numenor, and so

it's, it's, they come to an interesting

484

:

point now, more where the, the faithful

and the king's men are now clashing and

485

:

there is beginning to be well basically

the kingsmen are trying to like overthrow

486

:

or put away the faithful so they don't

have any more like, commanding power.

487

:

See that with Elendil They like, Hey,

if you're going to be, if you're, you

488

:

know, still be a part of the faithful,

you gotta, you gotta, you know, get

489

:

rid of your rank and the, and you

can like, I don't, it just get rid

490

:

of your rank, I guess is what they're

491

:

Jared: Mm hmm.

492

:

Yeah, I think they were like,

cleaning out, like, the sea guard.

493

:

I think the sea guard was mostly loyal

to the queen, so they were kind of just,

494

:

like, letting them all go, in a sense.

495

:

Philip: okay.

496

:

Yeah.

497

:

So we got that.

498

:

I think they, think like, yeah,

again, like, like you were saying, I

499

:

thought this episode was really good.

500

:

They had a really, a lot of interesting

parts that were, that really like caught

501

:

my attention and kept me interested and,

and then we go, all the way, I guess

502

:

like kind of the, I don't, I can't kind

of ended or like the high point was when

503

:

the one like younger guy who would have

been like Isildur's friend back in the

504

:

day he kind of came up against the..

505

:

Pharazon's son

506

:

Jared: hmm.

507

:

Philip: and there was a clash there

and this is like, one thing I had a

508

:

problem with this, and I think maybe

some other people have picked up on

509

:

it too, like, you have this guy who's

a soldier, he's attacked by like,

510

:

Pharazon's son, and like, Pharazon's

son doesn't seem like he's got much to

511

:

him, you know, but like, somehow he's

able to like get the guy in the water,

512

:

the guy's able to break free and then,

like, dislocates his shoulder and

513

:

then the guy ends up killing him, but..

514

:

So that's just kinda how it

all like, just escalated to, I

515

:

think in that storyline, but.

516

:

Anything there with like lore accuracies?

517

:

Jared: Yeah, so I was actually

really happy to, see this episode.

518

:

I think that we, we are finally

starting to enter like the parts

519

:

of the lore that, Numenor is based

off of, especially like what The

520

:

Rings of Power is trying to get to.

521

:

Because up until, I would argue up until

this episode, we've only seen like mostly

522

:

stuff invented by the show writers.

523

:

Like, they carry over a lot from, like,

the ideas behind Numenor, but this is the

524

:

first time that we're actually starting to

see things, like, directly from the text.

525

:

So, in the Silmarillion, for example:

526

:

"Cause was sought against the faithful,

that they hated King Pharazon and were his

527

:

rebels, or that they had plotted against

their kin, devising lies and poisons.

528

:

These charges brought against them were

for the most part false, yet those were

529

:

bitter days and hate brings forth hate."

530

:

Which I thought was like, yeah,

I recognized that like as soon as

531

:

like the tension started happening

between the faithful and the kingsmen.

532

:

I can, I kind of get the sense that

the writers have been waiting to get

533

:

to this point, because it's, this is

like the initial spark that starts to

534

:

build towards the downfall of Numenor.

535

:

So I can tell that like there's a lot of

like eagerness behind this story, which

536

:

I thought was pretty neat and pretty,

like, pretty gratifying to finally see.

537

:

Philip: True.

538

:

Yeah, I, it seems to me that they would

almost have the faithful just kind of like

539

:

try to escape Numenor at a certain point.

540

:

And I maybe they try to like retake it

over I don't know, but they're going to

541

:

get back to, to Middle earth somehow.

542

:

And yeah, before the,

before it all goes down.

543

:

Jared: So that's, something pretty

interesting that I think that

544

:

they alluded to a little bit with

Elendil's vision in the Palantir.

545

:

I think that's what they're alluding to.

546

:

Because in...

547

:

Once things start to get really bad

in Numenor in the future, the faithful

548

:

some of the faithful go over into Middle

earth, and they like, go to like, uh,

549

:

Polargear, uh, where, um, Theo and,

Arondir are now, and Isildur is now.

550

:

And then some of them go to the

west of Numenor, which is something

551

:

that they were kind of bringing up

intermittently in the first season.

552

:

They kept talking about like, the

true Numenor, if you remember.

553

:

Isildur was like, trying was

like, wanting to go to the western

554

:

shores of Numenor and find it.

555

:

There was a city of like, the Faithful

that kind of was established as

556

:

like a safe haven for the Faithful.

557

:

And I think that's kind of what

Elendil was riding towards in the

558

:

vision that he saw in the Palantir.

559

:

That's just me speculating, but I

think that's what they're trying

560

:

to build for in the future.

561

:

Philip: Okay.

562

:

So you're saying there is a more like

western, like habitation possibly, but

563

:

then there's also Middle Earth, to the

564

:

Jared: Yeah, so they all start to flee

the central city of, um, Annúminas.

565

:

That's where most of the stuff

in the show has been happening

566

:

so far, the city of Annúminas.

567

:

They start to..

568

:

The faithful start to just try to

get away from that city because

569

:

a lot of horrible things start to

go down inside that capital city.

570

:

And then eventually it ends with a

lot of the Faithful, getting to Middle

571

:

Earth, after the downfall of Numenor.

572

:

Philip: Yeah.

573

:

And I mean, this is a little

bit more of like projecting like

574

:

what possibly could come, but...

575

:

And I know the thing too would be

like neat to see like the Numenoreans

576

:

in like their full power and being

like more powerful than like, like

577

:

they're more powerful than just

like other men on middle earth.

578

:

Right.

579

:

so, you've got, I want to see.

580

:

I want to see Elendil pull out his sword.

581

:

I just want to like, I think, they're,

I don't know if they're hinting

582

:

that the sword he has now is uh,

583

:

Jared: Narsil?

584

:

Philip: Narsil or if there's like,

or if it's like somewhere else.

585

:

Jared: Yeah!

586

:

So, I think that they actually in

they had it in the background of a

587

:

scene in season one, um, whenever,

Galadriel and Miriel go to the Palantir

588

:

for the first time, you can see

Narsil back on the wall behind them.

589

:

And I think, because I noticed that

Elendil gave up his sword this episode

590

:

when he was like surrendering his,

uh, duty as a captain, and I was

591

:

like, all right, let's hope that we're

trading in a sword at this point.

592

:

Let's go!

593

:

Philip: Yes.

594

:

That's true.

595

:

Yeah.

596

:

So I've, no, I'd love to see that.

597

:

That'd be great.

598

:

All right.

599

:

So.

600

:

Any other things catched from

the Numenorean storyline.

601

:

Anything like less lore accurate?

602

:

Jared: Yeah, I think we'll have to

talk about Kemen, Pharazon's son.

603

:

So, Pharazon, we know very

little about his family.

604

:

It's never mentioned that he has

a son, so this is definitely, like

605

:

a creation by the show writers.

606

:

I think that, my personal theory is that

they're introducing Kemen right now to

607

:

save Pharazon as the big bad for later on.

608

:

Because Pharazon, he's gonna, he's gonna

be something else in the next few seasons.

609

:

And I think that they're trying

to, you know, give a little bit

610

:

of breathing room to like, have

him, save him as the big bad.

611

:

You know, kind of how they

kept putting off Palpatine in

612

:

the original Star Wars movies.

613

:

I think that Kemen is being introduced

as like a secondary antagonist just to

614

:

try and like get under your skin but

kind of also just like show how terrible

615

:

Pharazon is or how he's going to be

which I thought was pretty interesting.

616

:

I mean Kemen is just so punchable,

especially in this episode.

617

:

Philip: Yeah, what also, gets, gets

on my nerves is Elendil's daughter.

618

:

Who also isn't, isn't lore.

619

:

So like, I can see her just like,

staying with and being like, with the

620

:

destruction of Numenor and, you know,

and yeah, and just like, and not, and

621

:

not, like coming over to Middle Earth.

622

:

I can see that happening because

there's not, there's not, really much.

623

:

What else are they gonna

do with her, you know?

624

:

Jared: Yeah, so um, there is a theory

that's been going around that I am

625

:

totally 100 percent bought into.

626

:

We know at some point in the

future, Sauron comes to Numenor,

627

:

and he convinces the Numenoreans

to build a temple to Morgoth.

628

:

And for a temple, you need an architect,

and Earian just joined the Architects

629

:

Guild, and she's now aligning herself

with the evil guys on Numenor, so I think

630

:

she's gonna probably be involved with

some pretty terrible things in the future.

631

:

Philip: Yeah Now, Ar-Pharazon,

isn't his son also an architect?

632

:

Because..

633

:

Or is that, were they put,

casting him differently?

634

:

Jared: Yeah, I'm not

exactly sure what he is.

635

:

I don't know if he's trying to

be an architect or if he's trying

636

:

to be a politician at this point.

637

:

I think, I don't even know if he knows.

638

:

He just seems really desperate

to please daddy at this point.

639

:

Philip: Yes, oh my.

640

:

Yeah, that's true.

641

:

Oh, that's so true.

642

:

Jared: And Speaking of family

members, the one big, like, lore

643

:

thing that I keep returning to

is, where is Isildur's brother?

644

:

Because he's mentioned twice in the

first season and I was like, okay,

645

:

you know, they're saying that he's off

in the west part of Numenor I get it.

646

:

You don't want to like have

too many characters at once

647

:

to overwhelm the audience.

648

:

I thought for sure they were gonna

bring him in this season because

649

:

with Isildur stuck in Middle earth

and Elendil grieving And Eärien,

650

:

you know, siding with the king, this

would be the perfect time for Anárion,

651

:

Isildur's older brother, to be there.

652

:

You know, someone for

Elendil to, like, hold on to.

653

:

So I'm not, I don't really know

why they haven't brought him

654

:

into the story at this point.

655

:

Because, I feel like if they

wait any longer, it's gonna be

656

:

really contrived when they try

to bring him in in the future.

657

:

Like, oh hey, dude, where have

you been for the past two seasons?

658

:

Your dad, your brother,

could have used ya.

659

:

Yeah, Because Anárion is the one who

eventually, is the ruler of Minas

660

:

Tirith, or Minas Arnor as it's first

called, and Isildur, is running the

661

:

other city in the kingdom of Gondor,

so they're like the two, basically like

662

:

the twin kings at that point in Gondor.

663

:

So, having Anárion in the story

I think is kind of pivotal, so

664

:

I'm just, I'm just surprised that

they haven't brought him in yet.

665

:

And I felt like his absence

was a little sorely missed, at

666

:

least by me in this episode.

667

:

Philip: Well, hopefully they're

you know, kind of bring up a big,

668

:

uh, a big climax in that one, you

know, so that kind of his appearance

669

:

would kind of make a big impact.

670

:

So looking at, looking at these,

uh, the different ways that

671

:

Amazon's writing these stories.

672

:

And, you know, sometimes we can see,

we can see differences in the lore,

673

:

similarities in the lore too, but, but

I think like mostly in like, in some

674

:

differences, you might be able to tell

how Amazon's trying to write a story

675

:

that's maybe gonna fit more of a modern

setting as opposed to like the way Tolkien

676

:

be writing his story to be more of a

lasting impact on people that, yeah.

677

:

In a sense, it's enduring, right?

678

:

You know, no matter, no matter

where you're at, you're still

679

:

gonna find some value in his,

in the stories in his writing.

680

:

Endless.

681

:

Kind of endless.

682

:

Yeah.

683

:

So can you see, can you see,

like, anything with, uh, with

684

:

these different storylines that

that kind of, like, hits ya.

685

:

Jared: Yeah.

686

:

So one thing that I've been thinking

about a lot with this show in particular

687

:

is this show is in a really weird place

where it has very little to go off of and

688

:

also a lot to go off of at the same time.

689

:

And another thing that just the

entire premise of, the show is

690

:

based off the rings of power, which

is something that Tolkien kind

691

:

of left ambiguous in his writing.

692

:

Like, we don't really get to know, a

lot about the purposes of the rings.

693

:

Like, we do get, like, a lot some

insight here and there, and in

694

:

some of his letters and in, like,

chapters of the Silmarillion.

695

:

We get some insight, but overall,

Tolkien had a lot of ambiguity

696

:

in his writing while also, like,

just having this enormous scope.

697

:

I think the show is building into

people's desires nowadays to like,

698

:

know about lesser known parts of

the work like, you know, getting to

699

:

explore the lands of Rhûne and things

like that but it's also kind of

700

:

falling into the trap of this modern

literary narrative of if a show doesn't

701

:

explain everything, it's bad writing.

702

:

So I feel like the show is

kind of like trying to justify

703

:

itself by explaining a lot.

704

:

And maybe some stuff that

could have been left ambiguous.

705

:

So there's like very little

room for ambiguity, I feel

706

:

like, in the modern audience.

707

:

And I think that the show is

kind of struggling with that.

708

:

Because it's like, well,

how much do we explain here?

709

:

How much do we leave it kind of vague

and open to interpretation here?

710

:

Yeah, it's very interesting,

just like, thinking about that.

711

:

I've just been thinking about that

a lot, especially this season.

712

:

Philip: Right.

713

:

Yeah.

714

:

I think that something, and it kind

of goes off of that, and we've talked

715

:

about in other episodes, is how, you

know, I, Amazon's The Rings of Power

716

:

has tried to give like a backstory in

a sense to a lot of things that have

717

:

happened in The Lord of the Rings ya

know trilogy, and maybe like, that, all

718

:

that doesn't necessarily need to need

to be fleshed out so much all the time,

719

:

Jared: Yeah.

720

:

Philip: but

721

:

Jared: No, that's that's a really

good point, is that like, That's

722

:

also the thing I think is a big

struggle with prequels in general.

723

:

I think prequels kind of feel a need

to connect a lot to the original story.

724

:

And, you know, it can be done

well, but it also can, you can go

725

:

overboard with it fairly quickly.

726

:

I feel like that's also just, I

personally don't mind, like, the

727

:

Harfoot storyline, for example.

728

:

It's not my favorite by any stretch.

729

:

I don't mind it.

730

:

But I can understand people's frustrations

with it because it really, it seems to

731

:

be primarily there to connect viewers

to the hobbit storylines that they

732

:

love so much in Lord of the Rings.

733

:

So, I feel like there's definitely

a struggle with trying to

734

:

write a prequel show like this.

735

:

Philip: Yeah, definitely!

736

:

So if you could pull out like a

least favorite and a most favorite

737

:

part of this episode, where

would you, uh, which would it be?

738

:

Jared: Yeah, so I'll start

with my least favorite part I

739

:

really enjoyed this episode.

740

:

It might be one of the best in the

show, in my opinion, but I, I'll

741

:

admit I was really disappointed

with the doors of Durin.

742

:

I was hoping for a much grander reveal.

743

:

I was kind of hoping to like, see them

set the doors in this, the doors in

744

:

the side of the mountain, and like,

see like, the moonlight, you know,

745

:

shining on the runes and everything,

and instead what we kind of got was

746

:

like, uh, draw down the curtain.

747

:

Here's the doors.

748

:

Uh, huzzah.

749

:

And they, like, raise their glasses.

750

:

So I was just kind of I don't know if I,

like, set myself up too much for wanting

751

:

more from that scene, but I thought

that it was, like, something really cool

752

:

that directly goes into, like, Lord of

the Rings that's actually, like, there

753

:

in the lore, and then they kind of

just had it, like, very underwhelming.

754

:

Philip: Yeah, no, I think that's, I

think it happens a lot, especially in

755

:

this season, it's happened a lot with

just, there are these lore things that

756

:

like, they could be stretching out more,

like just kind of giving more time to,

757

:

to make things, just make things more

interesting and, and what not, but.

758

:

Yeah,

759

:

Jared: Yeah, and, like, kind of building

off of that, I Like I've said before, I'm

760

:

like very passionate about the dwarves

and the dwarven rings of power and I

761

:

remember, because I love, my favorite

scene of the first season is when

762

:

they're forging the elven rings in like

the last five minutes of the episode.

763

:

Like, it's like beautiful cinematography,

it's really cool to see them at

764

:

work and everything, and I remember

thinking, oh I hope we get to see

765

:

something like that with the dwarven

rings being made, and we didn't.

766

:

And I was like darn it.

767

:

Philip: Yeah, noo,

that's, yeah, definitely.

768

:

I, I agree.

769

:

So, what about your

770

:

Jared: Ooh, my favorite part.

771

:

I loved the attack on the faithful scene.

772

:

I wasn't expecting to care so

much about Valandil's death.

773

:

I just think that scene just happened

to be like, just acted out pretty well.

774

:

And like, the guy who plays, Elendil,

Lloyd Owen, I believe his name is.

775

:

you know, he just like,

gave his all to that scene.

776

:

And so I just really enjoyed that.

777

:

Also, I knew that Valandil was going

to die because in the future, Isildur

778

:

names his son Valandil, and Valandil

becomes one of the first kings of Gondor.

779

:

So once they had this character

named Valandil in the show, I

780

:

was like, Oh, great, something

terrible's gonna happen to this guy.

781

:

Isildur's gonna name his son after him.

782

:

So I really love that part.

783

:

But, another scene that I really loved

too was Celebrimbor at the very end.

784

:

Discussing with his smiths about how

they're gonna make the nine and he's

785

:

like, you know He's like if you're

not giving 100 percent in this project

786

:

You're no longer a smith of Eregion

and he like goes upstairs and he's

787

:

his hands are like shaking he's all

agitated and then Sauron just like

788

:

slides in with a smile and he's like my

friends I know that Celebrimbor seems

789

:

intemperate, but i'm here to help you.

790

:

Let's get to work shall we?

791

:

I was just like oh man, that is just cruel

792

:

Philip: Yeah, a lot of

well done stuff there.

793

:

Definitely my favorite episode by far too.

794

:

Yeah, I think, yeah, I think the

clash of the faithful and the kingsmen

795

:

is definitely, definitely cool.

796

:

wanna, I just wanna see like,

I feel like the action from the

797

:

first season wasn't so great.

798

:

So I'd like, so to see some more action

here, I think, like I think in general

799

:

for this season they definitely got the

Numenoran storyline going really well.

800

:

Like, there hasn't been a part

with them that I haven't liked,

801

:

honestly, really, overall.

802

:

So I really like that.

803

:

I think the guy who died is

definitely like a bummer.

804

:

I did like his character.

805

:

I think he grew on me.

806

:

yeah

807

:

Jared: It's going to be interesting

to see, because, the next three

808

:

weeks are like the three week,

basically, part finale, where

809

:

it's all the Battle of Eregion.

810

:

So I'm interested to see,

because we kind of got, like,

811

:

the Battle of the Southlands.

812

:

It was more like a skirmish of the

Southlands in the first season.

813

:

So I'm really excited and interested

to see how The Rings of Power is

814

:

going to do a full on battle scene,

something like Helm's Deep kind of deal.

815

:

I'm interested to see how that's going

to go in terms of just like action

816

:

and pacing, how well they handle that.

817

:

Philip: Oh, Yeah, Yeah, definitely.

818

:

It'd be cool.

819

:

I think I think for me.

820

:

It would almost be this sense of it being

so epic and then you get to it and it's

821

:

not and it's like, all right gotta reign

things in here be careful about you know,

822

:

not being maybe not being too excited.

823

:

Jared: Um, I don't want

to get my hopes up too

824

:

Philip: yeah

825

:

Anyways, that was great.

826

:

Well, thanks Jared for, for coming

on and, uh, and reviewing things

827

:

on the fourth, FIFTH episode here.

828

:

Jared: so much for having me.

829

:

Philip: Oh yeah, definitely.

830

:

Yeah.

831

:

This was, uh, this is great.

832

:

Yeah.

833

:

Thanks everybody for tuning in

and we'll catch you next time

834

:

for our review of episode six of

the rings of power season two.

835

:

Philip Outro: Thanks for

visiting the White City.

836

:

Before you leave, please subscribe

to our podcast and check us out

837

:

at thewhitecitypodcast.com or

on YouTube or Facebook under

838

:

the tag @thewhitecitypodcast

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The White City
A commentary on The Rings of Power and anything Middle Earth or Tolkien related.

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Philip Dudt

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