Episode 30

Exploring Resilience to the Power and Peril of the One Ring

Matt and Philip dive deep into different characters’ varying resilience to the One Ring's influence in Tolkien's Middle-earth. Starting with the enigmatic Tom Bombadil, who remains unaffected by the Ring's power. The narrative then explores the ring's different temptations and impacts on characters like Galadriel, Sam, and other races of Middle-earth. The episode provides a detailed comparison of how the One Ring's corrupting influence varies and why certain characters, especially hobbits, exhibit stronger resistance to its lure.

00:00 Introduction

01:25 Tom Bombadil is a Little Careless About the Ring

10:13 The Master and the Precious are One

13:38 Humble Hobbits, Meek Intentions and Powerful Beings, Worst Outcomes

21:10 The One Ring's Influence on Individuals with Different Levels of Power

Transcript
Philip:

Hello everyone.

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Today in this episode, we're going to

be talking about different characters'

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resilience to the Ring, how the Ring

affects different individuals, in

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different ways Just think about like

Galadriel to like Smeagol to Tom Bombadil.

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An interesting point to start off

with is, in a sense like, the Ring is

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going to affect everybody, especially

I mean, except for like Tom Bombadil,

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for those who know about the books.

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But, you know, because of its tempting

power, even someone like Galadriel

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is still going to be tempted to,

to use it, and there really isn't

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anybody who can, who can be completely

free of, of that temptation or

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desire to use, to use the Ring.

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Matt: Except for one

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Philip: Except for one!

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I guess we could like, start

off with the one who is like,

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not affected by it at all.

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Matt: I feel like we should start

there because that's a whole

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discussion in and of itself.

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But Tom Bombadil doesn't

care about the ring.

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And I think that's probably

the best way of putting it.

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is that he just doesn't care about it.

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Because he is.

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He's such an interesting character

because he's basically omnipotent within

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the bounds he has set for himself.

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So, within those bounds, he

is in, like, complete control.

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and, the ring, he just, he, he,

like, plays with it, puts it on,

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the ring disappears, and then, he,

he just messes with it, basically.

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Philip: Doesn't he like,

expand it and like,

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Matt: Yeah,

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Philip: it shrink or something?

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Matt: does all these weird things with it.

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And then, at the Council of Elrond, I

think it's Frodo, or one of the, Hobbits

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somebody suggests, Hey, why don't we

just leave the ring with Tom Bombadil?

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And Gandalf's like, well that's

a terrible idea, cause he'll just

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misplace it, because he doesn't,

He doesn't care about it at all.

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He's, yeah, and his character is

really interesting because there,

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there are endless debates about

what he is, or who he is, or what

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he could be, or what he is or isn't.

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My, it's kind of a cop out answer,

but my take on it, my favorite

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take on it is that Tom is just Tom.

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He's just a guy.

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Like, he's just kind of his own

thing, that Tolkien put into this

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world to kind of add to the mystery

and the whimsy of it, basically.

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And so, like, he, I'm pretty sure Tolkien

wrote in a letter that, like, no, he's

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not Iluvatar, he's not a Valar, he's

not any of these, like, powerful beings.

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He's just, essentially a nature spirit,

like, he's just like a manifestation

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of, like, he's a manifestation of

Middle-earth and he's just kinda there.

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And, like, cause there's, there's a

lot of interesting things about him,

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like, basically, one of the things

they said is that, like, if all else

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falls, Tom Bombadil will be the last to

fall, but he will fall, like to Sauron.

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So, he's just kind of an enigma,

and like, I don't know, a spirit of

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the world, but wholly unconcerned

with like the greater goings on.

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And I think that, part of the reason,

like thematically, that it makes sense

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that he doesn't, he's not tempted

by the ring, is that, like, he could

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be omnipotent, if you wanted to.

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He's just set the bounds in which

he's going to be powerful and strong

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and all knowing and all powerful,

and so because he's limiting himself

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with that power and conceivably has

access to way more power than he lets

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himself have, the ring just doesn't

tempt him because he doesn't need it.

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He is beyond the ring.

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Because the ring, again, like,

the ring tempts people with...

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Essentially, the ring tempts you

with the lie that it can give

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you what you want, more or less.

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and Tom Bombadil already

has everything he wants.

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He has, the forest, and his

songs, and his wife, and the

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hobbits to talk to occasionally.

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And he just, he's just, he's just Tom.

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But like, there are other things, too.

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Where, like, it's not just the ring.

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There's also, like, the Barrow Whites,

that are in a roundabout way, connected to

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some of the same kind of magic of the...

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Actually, they probably are

connected to the magic of the rings,

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because they're, like connected

distantly to the Witch King.

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They're like kings.

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So, like, in the books, when the

four hobbits leave Tom's house they,

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they get trapped in these, tombs.

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And the tombs are of not the kings of

Arnor, but like Arnor at some point

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got split up into three kingdoms.

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And one of those kingdoms was allied with

Angmar against the other two kingdoms,

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and I think it's like those kings

that were allied with the Witch King.

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are the ones that are buried in the,

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Philip: Those tombs, the barrowdowns?

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Matt: the, Witch King basically put

the curse on these dead creatures

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to try and cause havoc or whatever.

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Which is also why the knives, the, the

swords that they get in the barrows,

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it comes back around later that, is it,

Merry yeah, Merry stabs the Witch King

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right before Eowyn kills the Witch King,

and the blade he uses was the blade

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he got in the Barrow that was created

specifically to combat the Witch King.

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So, like, it's, it's this whole cycle

of, like, he uses the blade that was

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designed to, like, depower the Witch

King, basically, to create an opening

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for Eowyn to kill the Witch King.

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Cause like, in the movies, it's

just kinda like, Oh, I'm not a

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man, I killed the Witch King.

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And it's like, that's a part of it, but

also like, there's more of a setup to it.

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It's not just like, any old

person who isn't a dude can come

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along and kill the Witch King.

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It's like, there's a prophecy about it.

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And through these situations,

it gets fulfilled basically.

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Philip: Interesting, huh?

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Matt: But!

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The way they escape the barrows is,

Frodo starts singing Tom's song, and

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Tom comes along and basically, like,

smacks the barrow wights on the heads

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like bad ghosts and, like, gets the

hobbits out of there and, uh, and then

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gives the hobbits the barrow knives.

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So it's just like, even when he's,

like, coming face to face with these,

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like, evil, dark creatures, he basically

just treats them like unruly children.

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which, I think is part of the reason

why there's a really fringe theory

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that I'm not I don't really like,

in terms of thinking it's actually

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real, but I do kind of like it because

I think it's an interesting take.

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Is that, Tom Bombadil is actually evil.

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and that he's like, waiting for Sauron

to fall to become the next Dark Lord, and

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that's why Gandalf goes to talk to him.

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Like, cause, in the books, after, like,

the remnants of the Fellowship get

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back to Rivendell before the Hobbits

go back to the Shire, Gandalf is like,

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I'm gonna go talk to Tom Bombadil,

and he like, spends like a year or two

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with Tom, just like, talking with him.

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So, there's this theory that because the

ring doesn't affect him and he has power

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over the Barrowites, that Tom Bombadil

is actually the next great Dark Lord.

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Which it's like, I don't think

is true, but I do think is funny.

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Philip: Yeah, that's funny.

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It's kind of almost uh, he's like a

character put in there, but almost

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like doesn't fit the world, you know.

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He could like live in the world or not

be in the world, you know it's just...

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Matt: Yeah, so there's that.

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There's also um.

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So the, the, ironically enough, of all

the characters in the Lord of the Rings,

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we actually have the most out of...

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Well, not the most necessarily,

but we have a lot of out of story

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context for Tom Bombadil and that he

was a doll that Tolkien's kids had

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that Tolkien wrote stories about.

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And they're like, you can buy the,

they're, they were published actually.

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Philip: The Tales of Tom

Bombadil, or something like that.

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Matt: The, tales of Tom Bombadil.

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Yeah.

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And it's, it's a toy doll that his kids

had that he wrote adventures of, and for

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whatever reason, he was like, I'm going

to put him in the Lord of the Rings.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Matt: Um, and it's like, I don't know if

he was intending for that Tom Bombadil

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to literally be the same Tom Bombadil

that's in the short stories, or if he

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just like took the character and the name

and put like a copy of that personality

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in the story as like this ancient

whimsy, mystical, powerful, cheery dude.

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but...

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Yeah, no, Tom Bombadil is...

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Yeah.

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I, I, the best answer

is, Who is Tom Bombadil?

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The best answer is, Tom

Bombadil is Tom Bombadil.

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It's just like, that's as much

as we can really say for certain.

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Philip: I feel like the the next in line

for like uh characters who can be like the

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most resilient are probably the hobbits.

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I at least, I don't know, I guess you

could like, try to, like you were saying

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about how like, Tom Bombadil, he could

be like, he could be evil in the end,

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so he's really able to overlord these

like, like the ring and everybody.

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So like, in a sense you could say,

well is Sauron really like the, the one

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who is the least affected by the ring?

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Matt: For the record, I don't

actually think Tom Bombadil is evil.

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Philip: Yeah, I was just, just

throwin' it, just tossin' it out.

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Matt: I also, I don't think you can say

Sauron is affected by the ring in the

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sense, like, he is affected by the ring,

but not like, the ring doesn't tempt him.

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Because, like, for all intents

and purposes, Sauron and the

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ring are the same entity.

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Sauron took his power and,

infused some of his power and

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will and malice into the ring.

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Which is why it's so important that

the ring doesn't get back to him,

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is that if he gets the ring back,

then he will be at full power again.

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Like, Sauron, in the Lord of

the rings, is not peak Sauron.

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Peak Sauron is Sauron, at,

like, right before the, um, the

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Battle of the Last Alliance.

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Philip: Yeah,

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Matt: Yeah, but if Sauron gets the ring,

it's like he has recovered from his wounds

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at the Battle of the Last Alliance and

has himself personally grown, in power.

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So, if he gets the ring, he'll

be even more powerful and

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basically unbeatable is the idea.

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And that's why it's so imperative that 1.

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Sauron does not get the ring and 2.

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they destroy the ring.

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Is because, like, it's almost, it's

almost like a Horcrux in Harry Potter.

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Where, like, the Ring itself is

objectively less powerful than Sauron.

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And like, the Horcruxes have some

of Voldemort's power in them, but

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they're less powerful than Voldemort.

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But, they're still inexorably

linked, so that's why destroying

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the ring, doesn't kill Sauron, it

just like reduces him to a powerless

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shade, basically, is what happens.

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because so much of his power

is tied up in the ring.

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When the ring is destroyed, he is

crippled beyond repair, basically.

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Philip: Gotcha!

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That's, like, it's interesting like you,

you explaining it that way is like, a

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very good idea of like understanding like

the uh, like the implications of like the

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ring getting back to Sauron, you know.

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I feel like the movie doesn't really

doesn't explain that in depth.

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Matt: Yeah, no.

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Yeah, and so, yeah, so again, so for

all intents and purposes, the Ring and

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Sauron are the same entity, more or less.

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They're the same will, they're

the same, they have the same

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goals, they have the same desires.

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And really the only thing that

the, everything the ring does is

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an attempt to get back to Sauron.

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That's why, like, it changes size

so that it'll, like, fit somebody's

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finger and then it'll betray them if

it sees somebody it thinks is more

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likely to take it back to Sauron.

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But getting back to the hobbits, I think

that that is something that Tolkien

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kind of intentionally, portrayed is that

there's something about hobbits that

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is resistant to the power of the ring.

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So even Gollum, Who's like this

slimy, gross, corrupted creature.

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It's like he had the

ring for like 500 years.

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And he, first of all, he's

still, like, a physical being.

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Whereas, like, the ringwraiths had less

powerful rings for, like, maybe a hundred

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years, and turned into ringwraiths.

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And Gollum had the ring for five

hundred years, and he's not doing

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great, but he's still alive.

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Philip: Doesn't the ring also though in

that situation keep him alive longer?

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Matt: The ring does keep him

alive, but like, he's still, he

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hasn't, like, He hasn't, he has

not fully succumbed to the ring.

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Frodo and Sam...

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Sam, I think, is the most interesting

case because Sam is the only person other

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than, like, well, other than kind of

Galadriel, that rejects the ring outright,

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that we get to see their process of,

like, what the ring is tempting them with.

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So, in, in the books, when Frodo is

comatose and, Sam thinks that Frodo

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might be dead, he, he takes the ring.

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And the ring basically tempts him with

the idea that, like, Sam could go and beat

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Sauron and then, like, turn Mordor into a

verdant green garden kingdom, basically.

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Because Sam is, at, at his heart, is

just a humble little gardener who got

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caught up in this big epic adventure.

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But Sam realizes that,

no, it's just tempting me.

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It's just trying to get me back to get

itself back to Sauron, and ultimately

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rejects it and does not put the ring on.

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Maybe he does put the ring

on to go invisible briefly?

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Philip: He uses the ring to get by

the orcs and get he like hits his head

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against the gate because he can't get

through and then he like falls down.

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Matt: Yeah, yeah.

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Philip: But But he doesn't

use it for like his own...

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own

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Matt: yeah, he's not using it for his own.

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So, So, like, yeah.

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So, Sam sees himself becoming, like,

essentially the world's greatest gardener

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is more or less what it's saying.

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Then, contrast that with, Galadriel,

who is, like, instead of a

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dark lord, you'd have a queen.

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Like, she sees the ring as to essentially

preserve the elves is more or less what,

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like, not even preserve the elves, like,

bring the elven kingdoms back into their

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glory and defeat Sauron and all this.

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Which she obviously realizes, like,

oh, I would just be a tyrant, and

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essentially become subsumed by Sauron.

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so, yeah, you, you have these, you have

a brief kind of moment of this where

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Frodo offers the ring to Gandalf and

Gandalf is like, bad idea, don't do that.

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So it's, it tempts people

with what they want.

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Like it's incredibly, Like it's

incredibly subtle because it makes,

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like, It offers you what you know,

you, it knows you want most, but it's

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also like incredibly blunt in that

it's like, just like straight for that.

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It's not even like, Oh, maybe we

could, it's just like, no, with

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my power, you could do these

great things you want to do.

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but there is something about the hobbits

that is innately resistant to it.

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And I think the idea is that

the hobbits are, they lack the

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ambition of the other races.

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So like for hobbits, like for, for

pretty much anybody else, they're like,

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I could like basically conquer the world

and create this, like a mighty kingdom.

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And I'd be a mighty king and

I'd bring peace to the whole

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world and all this stuff.

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Whereas with hobbits, a hobbit's

greatest, like life desire is to

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you know, sit, yeah, smoke a pipe,

sit by the fire, be cozy, basically.

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And like, the ring doesn't get a

whole lot of traction out of, I

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will be the coziest hobbit ever!

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Philip: Well, it's kinda like that

idea of hobbits just like staying

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home, being those English countrymen

who like to drink their tea and like

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they don't go on adventures, right?

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Kind of a thing.

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Matt: Yes.

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So, and it's not that Tolkien's saying

that like, great deeds shouldn't be done.

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I think his argument is essentially that

like, the great deeds should be done

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to preserve the sort of cozy home life.

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And the hobbits, like, love the cozy

home life and so they don't have, as

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a rule, they don't tend to have the

ambition to, to go and change the world.

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They just, they just want

to make people happy.

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And I think that there's a part of

that, that that's part of the reason

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why they're so resilient to it is that

they're not driven by the same things

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that, uh, that other races are driven by.

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And so like, it's interesting too,

cause you look at how the, um, I

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think the dwarves are also, would

also be more resilient to the ring.

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So you go through all the

different, uh, what the different

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races did with their rings.

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So, the elves basically, they had

the least corrupted rings, emphasis

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on least corrupted rings, and they

just used them to preserve the

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beauty and power of their realms.

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And that's part of the reason why

all the elves are a little depressed

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throughout the entirety of Lord of the

rings, is because they're like, we need

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to destroy the ring, and we know that

by destroying the ring, everything we've

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built that's beautiful in this world

is going to start slowly fading away.

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Um, so like, that's why all of

the elves are going to the sea,

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is because they're like, there's

nothing left in Middle-earth for us.

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The dwarves just get really greedy.

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Philip: Really, really quick.

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Go back to the elf thing.

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So,

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Yeah.

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So is that basically in a

similar way with like Sauron?

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Like they put like a lot of their elven

power into the rings So once the rings

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are gone they're like, oh like, we don't

have any other power here, so we've

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got to go back to Valinor, essentially.

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Matt: Yeah, the idea is that they're...

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They did a similar thing with the

elven rings, but importantly, the

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Elven rings were the rings that

Sauron was not directly involved with.

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So, they had the One Ring, while

it still, because it was still

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Sauron's design they were using,

the Ring, the One Ring still had.

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influence over them, but because Sauron

himself was not directly involved,

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they were able to essentially hide the

rings and keep his influence at bay.

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The dwarven rings, the dwarves are just

really stubborn, so rather than like

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becoming ringwraiths, they just got really

crotchety and greedy, which led to a lot

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of their downfalls, mostly to dragons.

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And then the men, are incredibly

corruptible and, Sauron turned them all

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into, like, they all became mighty kings

and then they all became ringwraiths.

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So, I think that's, like, there is, the

ring does affect people differently.

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It's, I mean, even, it's even, like,

explicitly stated that, like, the

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reason, like, if Galadriel or Gandalf

or Elrond or somebody of that kind

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of magical ability put the ring on,

they probably wouldn't turn invisible.

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Because the ring sort of, it like, it

acts differently depending on what your,

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basically your potential with it is.

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So like, creatures like hobbits and

baseline humans, although I guess we'd

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only ever see hobbits wearing the ring.

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No, Isildur wears the ring.

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Philip: That's true.

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Matt: So, yeah, they, they turn invisible.

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Because that's kind of

like a tangible thing.

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And it's really less that they're

turning invisible and more that they're

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like going into the wraith realm.

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Um, And it's like, people like

Galadriel and Gandalf would just be

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so powerful that they'd still be able

to manifest in the physical realm.

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But, yeah, so like, for, for creatures of

like low magical ability, it's just like,

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Oh, it's a ring that turns me invisible!

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Whereas, creatures, like, individuals

with a lot of magical power it's like,

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Oh, I could use this to conquer the world!

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And it would augment everything

about me and also turn me evil.

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So, yeah, it's, it, it does, like,

who you are as a person and, like,

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your abilities and things do affect

how the ring affects you, essentially.

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