Episode 31

Impacts on Tolkien's Inventiveness in Creating Timeless Tales

Philip, Matt, and Mark discuss the different aspects that influenced Tolkien's work, such as his Christian worldview, historical and mythological inspirations, and timeless themes. They also explore Tolkien's unique ability to weave these elements together into compelling narratives that continue to captivate audiences.

00:00 Introduction

00:41 Setting the Stage

01:31 The Timeless Appeal of Tolkien's Lore is Multifaceted

02:14 The Impact of Tolkien's Christian Worldview

03:10 Tolkien's Inventiveness and Unique Characters

07:27 It's the Epic Story Behind the Relatable Heroes

15:06 Frodo: The Unlikely Hero

18:04 The Importance of The Hobbits as the Focus of the Story

24:47 The Scourging of the Shire: A Missed Opportunity

27:49 Conclusion: The Interwoven Elements of Tolkien's Mastery

Transcript
Philip:

Hello everyone, and welcome to the White City Podcast.

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I'm here with my co hosts, Matt

Vandevort and Mark Schaeffer.

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What's up, guys?

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Matt: What's up

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Mark: How's it going?

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Philip: We're going to

be talking about how,

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I mean, there are basically

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different things that have made

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Lord of the Rings and Tolkien's books,

so famous, and, one side of that

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is, you know, the mythology of other

cultures that Tolkien, you know, used

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to basically create his own stories.

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And a lot of that's pretty obvious,

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in ways you can tie it back.

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But also in the themes and worldview

and his Christian worldview,

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that is also very prevalent

in his work as well.

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so, so what makes Lord of

the Rings and Middle Earth,

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so good?

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Or

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what brings, like, people's

attention to it, I guess?

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You know, is that the worldview

or is that, like, the mythology?

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Mark?

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Mark: Yeah, I guess

I'll go ahead and start.

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I think it's interesting because

I think it's a little bit of

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maybe both is the right answer.

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but I think it's, it's really interesting.

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The first thing I think of,

like, what makes Tolkien so good.

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Is part of that he drew from mythology,

but like this is the idea that like

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his stories are timeless, right?

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Like these were ancient myths that he's

like readapting And therefore like the

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themes that are covered in them Will like

always speak to every audience because

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these are stories that have lasted like

already past the test of time, right?

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that he's like, passing over it's like

whenever like I read like people will be

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reading like Tolkien stories hundreds of

years from now because like These issues

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of like good versus evil and some of

these core themes are like not going away.

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I think part of that is because he

took these from older, mythological

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stories from other people's mythos.

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But I think also part of it

is his Christian worldview.

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as a Christian I think that the Christian

worldview is the correct one and therefore

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the Christian worldview will always

be insightful and therefore Tolkien's

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insights into the nature of good and

evil and the nature of friendship.

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These aren't just, um, You know, his

view on things, this is actually how

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these things work in the real world,

and therefore I think they will always

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capture, Like, capture audiences because

they'll be like, Hey, this is sort of

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how Temptation works, whenever they

see Frodo being worked on by the Ring,

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or this is sort of how evil is, like,

just trying to destroy, but not only

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just destroy, but perverts things,

like Saruman is corrupting people

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and the orcs and stuff like that.

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yeah, I think it's this combination of

Both the Christian worldview, because

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it's true and has these true things.

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And because these are ancient stories

that, I have like are timeless.

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So,

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Matt: Yeah

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I think that it's, like you said, I

think it's a combination of both things.

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I think also, it has to do with

just, Like, I don't want to discount

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his talent in and of itself.

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Like, he, he knows how to draw from these

things to create a very compelling story.

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like you said, I think these

are fairly timeless stories.

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because he's drawing from,

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a combination of his own worldview as

well as these kind of, Stories that

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were themselves already old, but he

kind of Not exactly presented them

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in a modern way because he was still

leaning on them On sort of the older

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traditions, but he presents them.

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He just presents them in a modern

time a more recent time and I think

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it's a It is a combination of The

stories he's drawing from and his own

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just extensive expansive imagination

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that Creates it all comes

together to create this very

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compelling world because he's

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I don't think he's intentionally

Like I don't think he's necessarily

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sitting down and thinking i'm gonna

be writing This story because i'm a

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christian like I think he's writing it

In a very believable way, and because

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he's writing it in that believable

way, and he's drawing from his own

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worldview, it just naturally comes out.

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And I think that, like you said,

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it's the Christian

worldview, so not only is it,

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what we would say is the correct

worldview, I think it's also,

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Despite cultural shifts in recent times,

there are, like, That's kind of the basic,

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the underlying basis of what a lot of

modern civilization kind of grew up from.

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Whether it's still believed

or not, it's, it's there.

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And so people find,

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that Tolkien, Tolkien's mind was a very

fertile place for these ideas to spring

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up and create such a compelling story.

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Mark: Yeah,

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I was just going to jump off really

quick of what Matt said that, um, I, my,

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one of my favorite quotes of all time

about CS or Tolkien, sorry, was, Timothy

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Keller, the pastor, famous pastor in

New York city, who passed away recently.

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but he said about J.R.R Tolkien that, you

know, you can write a story that like.

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It's just like, Jesus

is in the story, right?

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He's this character that's in

the story, and he's like there,

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Matt: Cough, Cough.

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Cough, Cough.

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Aslan.

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Cough, Cough.

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Mark: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Exactly.

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That like, he, he's there in the story.

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You can look at Jesus, and you

can see, tell people what you see.

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Or you can put on Jesus, like,

glasses, and you can look at the world,

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and then tell people what you see.

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And oftentimes it's that second one

that can get through to non Christians

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a lot more, because they see the

same things that they see, except

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they see them in a different light,

and maybe a deeper and truer light.

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I think that's one of the reasons why I

like Tolkien is classic, because it's his,

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that's sort of how his Christian worldview

plays into things, is he's looking at

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the same things we're all looking at,

but he sees them in a different light

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because of his Christian worldview.

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Matt: Yeah.

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I think Oh.

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Go ahead.

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Mark: well, I was also going to say,

like, we were obviously talking about,

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like, the things that he gets from his

Christian worldview and also what he

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gets from older mythologies, but I don't

want to forget in this, there is a lot

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of Tolkien inventiveness, Hobbits are

just like, he just straight up made up

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those, right?

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so there's lots of this in elements

that, or as I recall, one of his,

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one of his first like, things was,

what's the name of Elrond's father?

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The guy who's like the star.

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I'm like,

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Philip: Elros?

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Matt: No, Elros was his brother

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Mark: his brother, but

the mariner who sails the

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stars and his name, Arendelle.

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Thank you.

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That's right.

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but he, he like, there's this

like really old British poem that

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like, nobody knows anything about.

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And there's just like, Arendelle was the

greatest mariner or something like that.

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And he's like, Hey,

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This is like, I'm going to create this

whole backstory for this character.

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Right.

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So like, even if he's sort of like got

that name from somewhere, he like is

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making up this whole story for this guy.

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So it's like, even if he's borrowing

things, he is heavily adapting or just

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straight up creating new things for them.

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So I just want to remember that as we're

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Matt: I mean, I think also you

have to remember that he did not

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set out to write an epic history.

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Like, especially with The Silmarillion, he

set out to write the story of the cultures

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that spoke the languages he made up.

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Like, it's all backstory.

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it's not until, like, you have,

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The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings

that he's like, specifically writing,

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a narrative.

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Like, people, depending on the

person, it's either a complaint

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or the reason they love it.

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The Silmarillion is, reads

very much like a history book,

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because that's what it is.

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and so it's, it's just very, I think

it's, he, I think that's another way.

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He, he understood sort of how history.

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Kind of works and how events kind of

turn and things like that can happen.

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And so he wrote

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a like a true lie is like what some of the

best stories are are called they're like

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they're they're obviously it's fictional

but They, they operate in the same way

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that the truth does, and so he, he just

creates these very compelling stories, and

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like, even you have, like, the Hobbits.

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I mean, personally, I think the

Hobbits were probably just him writing

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what his ideal life would be like.

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But Uh, it's, you have things like

this where it's like, the reasons, you

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know, the reasons he wrote them the

reason they're so popular is because

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they do have a very enticing, like,

worldview and like, I think it's, it's

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such an interesting dynamic that you

have these people, like, in so many

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stories you have like the epic hero,

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or the epic quest and like,

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There's the whole Hero's Journey

thing where there's like the

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refusal of the call and all of that.

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But, I think that in a lot of

these stories, like, the characters

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are kind of the chosen one.

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They're cut out to be, This epic

hero and to a certain extent they

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want to go on this epic quest and,

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I think that the reason that the

hobbits are so interesting, especially

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Frodo and especially Sam, is that they

don't want to go on an epic quest.

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They go on an epic quest

because somebody has to do it.

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And,

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I think that's more realistic to life

in that there are these Like there are

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certain things that, you know, they might

be like great tasks or even just like the

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mundane day to day things where it's like,

I don't want to have to deal with that.

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I don't want to have to do it,

but somebody's got to do it.

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And those are the most compelling

characters I think are the ones that

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realize, I don't want to do this,

but it's the right thing to do.

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And so, um, sort of, you're

dragging your feet, but you

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drag it all the way to the end.

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Like, I, I think that

that's a very relatable,

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it's just a relatable story.

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that I think is how he, another

way that it's, it's so good

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because it is a reflection more

of Again, it's like a true lie.

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It's more reflective of how the world

actually works than, you know, I want to

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be an epic hero and I'm gonna go off and

do epic hero things because usually in

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those stories like something really bad

happens to the Bright, young, eager hero.

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Whereas with Tolkien, it's like, all

of the heroes are like, Yep, we're

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gonna die, probably, but we gotta

do it, so we're gonna go do this.

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Mark: Yeah.

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It's

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interesting that, sorry, go for it.

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Phil.

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Philip: No, I was just gonna say,

a book that I've been kind of

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fascinated by recently is uh, it's

called An Encyclopedia of Tolkien.

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So what it is is it's like on the

history and mythology that inspired

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Tolkien's world so it goes through

like different characters in mythology

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like, Aeneid, who I didn't know

Tolkien pulled anything from the, like,

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from, like, Aeneas, like,

Aeneas in the Aeneid.

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But I was like, oh, that's pretty cool.

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So it's kind of cool to, like,

look through and see different

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characters that, um, that he,

like, made, like, from mythology.

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Yeah.

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Matt: Yeah.

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I think, that's an interesting point

to bring up, because He was sort of

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trying to write In the epic style, like

an epic history for England, basically.

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but it is, I think another reason

it's compelling is because it is epic

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in scope, but again, like the heroes

of the Lord of the Rings are very

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they're not Beowulf, who comes in

like a boss, and is just awesome

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the entire time, and then even when

he dies, he dies in the most baller

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way possible, by killing a dragon.

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like, there, there is no point at

which Beowulf is seen as, you know,

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not being the coolest guy in the room.

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and I think Tolkien's,

like, closest analogues are

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characters in the Silmarillion.

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Like, you have characters like Feanor or,

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Turin, who are They do all these

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Mark: Fingolfin

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Matt: Yeah, Fingolfin They do all

these epic things, but, like, it

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seems that the There's a corresponding

amount of cost and suffering to their,

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uh To the things that they achieve.

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So, you have, you know, Feanor creates

the most beautiful jewels, but is a

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complete fool at the end of the day.

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you have,

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Turin who basically every time he

has a victory, it's immediately

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snatched out from underneath him.

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up to you, like, you have this, You

can, you can really easily compare

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the ending of Beowulf to the end, to

the ending of Turin's story, because

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they both die fighting and killing a

dragon, but in Beowulf's case, it's

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kind of, it's still like, Oh, he's dead.

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What a shame, but didn't

he go out so cool?

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And in Turin, it's like, man,

everything in his life was terrible,

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and even his death was terrible.

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Like, even though he did this great

thing and killed this dragon, just,

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it still made everything worse.

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So, it's, it, I think he, he writes

on an epic scale, but he writes

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epics through, not necessarily a

modern lens, but through a lens that

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has developed from those periods.

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And so, it is particularly compelling

now, rather than the kind of stories

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that you would have gotten hundreds of

years ago in a way that I think, because

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of its scope, I think it will be read,

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for centuries.

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but it will, it will have that, it, it

kind of, it's, it's a snapshot of the

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period it was written in the same way

that those older epic poems were snapshots

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of the period that they were written.

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And,

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yeah.

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He just did a very good job at

creating an epic for the 20th century.

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Mark: I think especially, I

mean, this is like, To this day,

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probably the strangest Tolkien ever

wrote is probably Frodo himself.

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That like, of, talking about

like a non typical, like, hero is

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like, man, Frodo, he's like, just

suffers the whole time, right?

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And his whole struggle is

like, internally with the ring.

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And he is constantly like, as a hero,

who, like, you know, maybe the big, the

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hero's journey is like them realizing

like, I need to help in the end,

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like Frodo starts off needing help.

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He starts off as this small character and

he doesn't really get any bigger, right.

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His signif, he's significant, but

he's not important in, in a way.

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and like in the end, he

actually like fails, right?

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He doesn't throw away the ring

in the, in the fire of Mordor.

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So like, it's, it's super

interesting, I think.

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That is like a character I've never

read any like I've read lots of fantasy

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and no one's ever written a character

quite like that and like, to this day,

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but it's also like so relatable right

like, um, just someone who fails and

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who like doesn't have it all or isn't

the most powerful person or like Yeah.

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it's interesting because like characters

like Aragorn you think of are like Oh,

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that's like sort of your classic hero,

right the return of the king and stuff But

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like that like that's not Frodo, right?

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but Frodo is the main character and he

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starts out the story and he ends the

story that way and Yeah, I don't know.

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I've always found that fascinating.

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Philip: Yeah, definitely, um,

I think what's interesting is,

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I guess like Frodo is always, is like

I guess pretty much the main character,

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Sometimes, like in the movies, it's kind

of hard to, hard to see, cause it's,

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you know, it's kind of boring a

lot of the time when you see him.

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Matt: I may or may not have

skipped the Frodo sections the

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second time I watched the movies.

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I will neither confirm nor deny.

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Mark: Those are the

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best parts.

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All of you are traitors.

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Philip: Yeah.

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Matt: I agree now!

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Philip: into

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Matt: of

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Philip: You know, like Aragorn turns

into like a good, At least the way

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they like, made him in the movie,

as like a good main character.

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Kinda like you were saying, Mark.

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Because, he like, because he's like,

leading everybody to like, battle.

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He's like, really,

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like, encouraging people, right?

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To fight, and,

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But

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Mark: And he's like important and he

improves right he's the return of the

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king the one that everybody's looking

for He like is the one that comes in and

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saves the day And it's like the opposite

of Frodo right where like Frodo doesn't

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get more significant or more important

as the story goes along I mean the ring

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itself and his journey does but like he

as a person doesn't his qualities, his

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character isn't sort of more important,

and yet his struggle is like the most

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compelling part of the book, whereas

it's interesting, like you said, in

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the movies, Aragorn is much more of

this main character, whereas the books,

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Aragorn is almost like, it's told from

the outside perspective of Aragorn.

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I

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think it's really interesting that if

someone else were to write The Lord

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of the Rings, I think they would put,

like, Samwise as the main character

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and, like, their goal is to help Frodo,

Through like Mordor or something, right?

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And like as they like go along they

get stronger and braver and they

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learn things and they get better at

helping Frodo But like that's not the

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way Tolkien wrote the story, right?

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Samwise is a very important

character, but not the main character

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Matt: Yeah, I think that,

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it's important to remember that

in Universe, the Lord of the Rings

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is written by hobbits essentially

as a recollection of events and

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so I think Again in the books.

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It's been a while since I've read the

books, but if I recall correctly Aragorn

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like He doesn't exactly have an arc.

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Like, in the, in the movies, it's like,

Oh, he's so reluctant to be the king,

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and he kinda becomes king so that he

can marry Arwen, and all that stuff.

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Whereas in the books,

it's like, like, he gets,

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Anduril as they're leaving Rivendell,

and it's kind of like a given the

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whole time that he's gonna go and,

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Reclaim Gondor.

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Like, he doesn't, he doesn't ever have a

crisis of do I want to be the king or not?

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He's always like, yep, it's time.

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I'm gonna go become the king.

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Because I think that One, he is,

in the Lord of the Rings, he is

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the closest to like an epic hero.

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Going off and doing these epic things

and getting the girl and saving the

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kingdom and doing all this sort of thing.

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But, I think it's a very

Tolkienian thing that, despite

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all of what Aragorn is doing,

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none of it would have mattered had

not the small folk been there to,

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destroy the ring.

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And so I think, I think you

can make the argument that,

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I mean, I think Frodo is the

main character in, to the extent

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that there is a main character.

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But, I think that it's, it is much

more, the hobbits get much more focus.

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really the only time that you

don't have a hobbit around as part

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of the action is the brief stint

where you have the three hunters,

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going, And they're specifically

going to find hobbits.

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and so,

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so you have these,

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for most of the book, it's told through

the, through the eyes of the hobbits.

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and they are seeing, they are seeing

these events take place with every now

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and then Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas

go off and do their side adventure.

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And I guess Boromir's

around for a little while.

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and so It's Yeah, it's It's so interesting

because the way it's written, like,

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there isn't a single main character.

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Because It's almost Almost

prefiguring the sort of

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like Game of Thrones esque Like, point

of view chapters of several different

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characters where you kind of see

all their stories weaved together.

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it's just that, that style of

writing hadn't really developed yet.

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And so, I think that's another reason why

it's so interesting is that you're not

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following a single character, and yet it

is much more narrative than, You know,

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the Silmarillion's and then this happened,

and then this happened, and then Turin

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screwed up again, and then this happened.

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and so

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he, he pulls together all these different

styles of storytelling and themes and

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world, his worldview and epic stories,

and just ties them together into

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just this unique tale that has been.

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So influential on, pop culture and culture

and storytelling and the entire fantasy

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genre to this day that it it is the

seminal work of that sort of storytelling

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Mark: Yeah, absolutely, and I think

like that's that's really true that the

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story doesn't like does focus a lot on

many different characters I would push

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back a little bit in that I it's very

clear that Frodo is the main character

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Particularly that he's the one who

starts out the book, like him meeting

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Gandalf is very much like the movies.

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But also that after he wakes up,

like he is like a hundred percent.

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So like at the very end of the

story, like it's very clear like,

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hey, we're following people now, but

like it's Frodo a hundred percent.

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Like there's this, you know how

Frodo wakes up in the movie and

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he's like, everyone comes in.

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That's even like more so

played out in the book.

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Matt: yeah

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although

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i i do think that it's

it's less clean cut with

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Frodo being like the book ending

of the stories because You come

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back, and you have the scourging

of the Shire and everything, and I

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think it's very intentional that,

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the book ends with Sam

saying, well, I'm back.

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Because I think that,

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like, I know I have heard a

lot of people say that I think

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that the real main character of

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story is Sam.

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Which I, I have opinions on, but I

think it's it's interesting because

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Sam is the only one that essentially

ends the story in the same situation

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that he started the story in.

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In that he is just living

in the Shire as a hobbit.

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because even Merry and Pippin,

you know, go on to like, found

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these kind of great dynasties.

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And Sam does a little bit of that, but

Merry and Pippin kind of go off to do

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:

these, Grander things in the Shire.

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:

Frodo is across

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:

sea.

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Gimli and Legolas kind of go off

and found their own kingdoms.

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:

Aragorn's obviously the king.

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Boromir's dead.

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you,

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so he's the only member of the

Fellowship that represents the,

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:

the sort of You're fighting for the

quiet life kind of theme that is, I

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think, really the central, a central

part of the story, is that Tolkien is

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:

writing that you're not just going out

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:

do epic deeds, you're doing this

to protect the folks back home, and

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you're doing this to protect the

quiet country life, and that kind of,

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:

Existence is what Is kind of it's

a it's a it's a preservation like

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you fight to preserve not to Change

necessarily, I think is kind of

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:

the the main impetus behind that so

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Mark: Frodo did save the

Shire, just not for himself.

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Matt: Yeah, Yeah,

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Philip: For you, for you, Sam.

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Mark: I think, what is the actual line?

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:

He says, we set out to

save the Shire, and we did.

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I just, not for me, or

something like that,

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Philip: Then everybody cries.

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Mark: Everybody cries.

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:

That's how this movie always ends.

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Matt: Man, imagine if they had

adapted the full ending of the books.

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They would have had to

make a whole other movie.

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:

Mark: Okay, yes, but like, that is low

key, like, one of the best parts of the

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:

book, is the scourging of the Shire.

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:

Matt: No I agree I think I think if they

did a um, a TV show, it would make a like

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:

two or three episodes.

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:

this is something that kind of a tangent,

but I think that the Scourging of the

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Shire is so important because I don't like

how they killed Saruman in the movies.

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:

because I it's so much better that he

dies in this, like, super petty way.

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:

he's put on the same footing

as Gandalf at the beginning.

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:

Where, like, he's He's treated as like

this epic grand figure and then he ends

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:

getting his plot spoiled by four hobbits

returning to the shire and just training

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:

the hobbits in the smallest amount of

like discipline and the like Saruman's

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:

whole plot just folds over and just

Becomes such a pitiful figure at the end.

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:

Like, I think even, even Frodo, like,

spares him out of pity, which is so,

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:

it's so fitting for Saruman because,

like, the first thing he's introduced

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:

to saying is talking about how, like,

I don't understand why Gandalf cares so

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:

much about these stupid little hobbits.

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:

They don't matter at all.

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:

And then at the end of the story, he

is He, he's not even worth the effort

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:

of those same hobbits to, to, kill.

438

:

Like, I, I, I wish they'd done

something more like that in the movies.

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:

I get why they didn't for like,

pacing and story purposes.

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:

But, that is one of, I, I think that's

the biggest loss in The Scourging of the

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:

Shire is seeing how Saruman just really,

like, it's really not, It's just kind of

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:

the revelation of he's so desperate for

any kind of power by this point that he

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:

tries to take over the Shire and it's

like oh you and your mighty Shire kingdom

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:

like it I don't know it just it's a

really good end and I like I like that

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:

version of Wormtongue betraying him than

446

:

because it also like It's not

a redemption for Wormtongue,

447

:

like it kind of is in the movie.

448

:

Where like, like it's played up

as like he, he just can't trust

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:

anybody anymore in the movie as well.

450

:

But, it's like, at that point

Wormtongue, like he's not trying

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:

to prove himself to anybody.

452

:

He's just so fed up and tired

of Saruman belittling him.

453

:

That, it just kind of shows

how pettiness breeds pettiness.

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:

And bitterness.

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:

And yeah, it's just, it's so well done.

456

:

Philip: Yeah, so I think, I think

we've made it clear that it's

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:

hard to just, you know, take,

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:

the mythology or the worldview

or the themes separately in like

459

:

Tolkien's work and say, Oh this is

like what really makes his works good.

460

:

Asking that question, in my mind I was

still thinking like, yeah, you can't, it's

461

:

not one of these things that make it well.

462

:

But,

463

:

the themes, the worldview,

and, the history and mythology.

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The White City
A commentary on The Rings of Power and anything Middle Earth or Tolkien related.

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Philip Dudt

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